Honest Questions For Traditionalist Methodists on the Eve of Our Apocalypse

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Dear db,

I don't understand God completely, far from it. But I do know God speaks in the the Bible and what it says it true. Not always easy, but true. Two wrongs don't make a right. Funny how bank robbers and murders typically admit what they do is wrong. But adulterers and sexual perverts often just make excuses. Bonhoeffer urges us to go for “expensive grace” and not to settle for “cheap grace,” - forgiveness without repentance. Cheap grace is not the bargain it appears to be, it's a pitfall to be avoided.

Anger? Not anger here, but almost, from the frustration of these people living in such an ungodly manner. They refuse to turn back, claiming a right to live as they choose and even be proud of a life of debauchery! But there is no right to live in an ungodly fashion from God. Although God is patient, and waits hoping we will turn from our sins. Just as Jesus talked with the worst of sinners to show them how God would have us live. It was not that he approved of their behavior! Now Satan likes such behavior, but he cannot grant such a right and spends his time trying to trick people.

God loves us so much. It is our job as followers of Christ to call those back who have strayed from the straight path Jesus directed us to. We never know how much time they have left. And we must make an honest effort to call them back – not just tell them “you will surely die” (Ezekiel 3:18) We must do better than that – we must warn them.

Skipper 87 days ago

Well, I’ve got some questions for you, Progressive Rev. Guyton:

1) Why have homosexuals joined the UMC over the last 60 years? Didn’t all of them know about our rules that were rules long before they were written and became written in the 70’s? So, why would they join a church which had such traditions, moral values, even written rules for the last 50 years?
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2) How did we get so many homosexual clergy? Weren’t they taught about the BoD in seminary? If so, why would they still apply to a denomination which had such unambiguous rules? There have been alternatives!
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3) Why would homosexuals (and their liberal supporters) expect traditionalists to abandon cultural, traditional morals of thousands of years without a fight? My mamma and all their mammas before her were heterosexual, so far as I know. All the preachers they ever had must have been, so why should my line of traditionalists abandon the proven old ways for your new-day morality?
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4) Now that the UMC has reached this point of no return, why wouldn’t homosexuals and liberals prefer a formal easy exit for both sides so that we neither have to endure this fight any longer? It certainly detracts from our missions, not to mention, our quiet, peaceful enjoyment of our house of worship. You do understand that whatever St. Louis produces, this fight will continue at every level of our denomination, don’t you?
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5) Have you noticed from the range of posts to this blog that many in both sides think the bishops have sold them out? How can a denomination continue with so little confidence in it’s management? Turn out the lights, the party's over!

Reese 87 days ago

The previous commenters didn't even read your post!

Wow! So much anger and vitriol from the previous comments. Did you guys even read Morgan's list of other lines that we as a denomination have crossed? Why is this any different. Skipper, td, and Paul here is a bit of wisdom from my orthodox UMC pastor: anyone who says that they completely understand God and and the scriptures is lying." You say traditionalists have certainty because they know they are right (paraphrase) and progressives like to keep their options open may be because they don't really (paraphrase)....

Your certainty is arrogance and pride and much like the learned church leaders that despised Jesus. Pride goeth before the fall my friends. I myself am not sure on this issue and can see things from different perspectives, but I choose mercy and grace whenever I am unsure, cause that's what Jesus said to do.

db 88 days ago

Apocalypse?

You see an apocalypse. I see us finally coming to terms with the reality that the “ United” Methodist Church is not and never will be united in belief and Doctrine and is thus spiritually adrift despite the good works being performed by people calling themselves Methodists. I suspect those people are still going to be trying to be closer to God and trying to do His will as they understand it even if divided institutionally into separate denominations. A split of a human construct created in 1968 hardly qualifies as an apocalypse. God is much bigger than the UMC. If division is your idea of an apocalypse, do believe the Reformation was an apocalypse? The division between the Calvinists and Armenian schools of thought and theology was an apocalypse? That Methodism breaking from the Anglican Church was an apocalypse? If so, I say let’s get on with the apocalypse, so we can get on wth our mission of bringing people to Christ in the way we understand God requires of us. Change is always unsettling, but chaos is devasting, demoralizing and demeaning.

John 88 days ago

You are confused

Just as progressives seem to equate my disagreement with them on their pro LGBT position as “hating” LGBT people, you have equated traditionalists’ confidence in our Biblical position as arrogance and pride. Neither of those two correlations is true. Disagreement does not equal hate and confidence in my beliefs does not equal arrogance. Why is this so hard for progressives to understand? Jesus teaches us to love our neighbors and I do. He doesn’t teach us to agree with our neighbors.

Similarly, God is Love. What he tells us is Truth. Believing and following Truth is not arrogance. Neither is trying to shareGod’s Truth an arrogant act. If only progressives would open themselves to Truth we could live in unity and change the world sharing God's Truth and Love.

Steve 85 days ago

Honest Answers

Question 1 – the confidence you speak of is real. They (conservatives) really believe in Christ and the Bible. That makes them different from the world, as Christ commanded His followers to be. And they are committed. Progressives find a lack of confidence which may stem from knowing that tolerating sexual sins is really evil. It seems they want to keep their options open, preventing them from making a commitment to Christ and living the Christian Life.

Rev. John Stott tells us the reason why loving homosexual partnerships must be condemned is “because they are incompatible with God's created order. There can be no “liberation” from God's created norms; true liberation is found only in accepting them.” So, there you have it. It's God's way or your own way. Choose God's way!

I believe we are about to see the United Methodist Church leading out of darkness of perversion and into the light of Christ on sexuality. Your Apocalypse? No, not your destruction, but your opportunity to follow Christ in every area of living, including sexuality.

Skipper 88 days ago

not confused; not ambivalent.

Not confused or ambivalent. Sexual sins are not new for the church; they were prevalent at the time of Christ in the ancient world.

If the traditional position loses, what I lose is the church that I was baptized and grew up in- a history of over 40 years. It will be painful to lose those personal relationships, but the work of the Gospel continues and I can work with a different church that doesn't have the Methodist name. I am tired of having ministers sent to our church that seem to have no belief of how God and Jesus personally touch people's lives.

td 89 days ago

Insincere questions, but I'll answer them anyway...

Don't fool yourself; all you're trying to do is score rhetorical points.

1. Do I feel as ambivalent and confused as you?
Absolutely not. It's about time someone put their foot down and attempted to roll back the revisionist apostasy in the UMC.

2. Why is queer sexuality where I draw the line?
It isn't. The issue is apostasy in the UMC. This is a "line in the sand" only because it is a clear case where the revisionists are trying to declare that something is not sin that the Bible clearly and consistently defines as sin. There is no other concerted effort in the church where groups are trying to normalize other sins.

3. Do I worry about creating a stumbling block for evangelism?
Quite the opposite. The UMC would be stepping back out of heresy and be a clearer witness for Christ.

4. What will I lose if my side doesn't get its way?
It's not about what I'll lose. It's what the UMC will lose. We will have voted for apostasy and against Scriptural Holiness. Make no mistake, if apostasy wins next week, more will be led astray, die in their sins, and spend eternity in hell.

Paul W. 89 days ago

From my Traditionalist view

I agree with Paul’s answers and will expound upon them some.

1. No, Idon’t feel confused Or ambivalent. I am confident in my belief that homosexuality is a sin and marriage is only between a man and a woman. God’s word to us, from the Bible could not be any clearer on this. I am saddened that our church leaders have tried to lead us astray and opt for the politically correct interpretation instead of leading us in Truth as they swore before God to do.

2. As noted, the Bible is clear on this issue yet our leaders have chosen this hill upon which the UMC will die upon, given their total abdication of their duties, breaking their oaths,and lying to their members. If I can’t trust my leaders to lead me in Truth on such a clear issue as this, I can’t trust them on other issues. The LGBT issue has caused me to go back and look at previous decisions on other issues - abortion, global warming, gun control, illegal immigration, etc. The official UMC position on these issues has generally been to follow the social justice position, which I disagree with. So, our leaders have been abandoning us for quite awhile and I have been too lazy to pay attention. However, officiating gay marriages and appointing an openly gay bishop got my attention and made me aware of just how far we have fallen as a congregation. We are no longer following a Biblical path but a secular humanism, social justice path. Our leaders lack credibility and have misled us away from the path of righteousness. As a result, I have quit giving to my church and have not attended for 2 years and yes, I was one of the top 5 givers in our congregation.

3. I believe that leading others in Truth is what is important, not just telling them what they want to hear. God will help us reach out to others with a message of Truth. Because he has given us free will, it will be up to them whether to accept His Word as Truth.

4. I love my local church. It began as a conservative congregation but degraded to Avery liberal social justice place of worship. I still love the people there, at least 40% of which are LGBT. However I can’t go down the path they are headed. So, I will lose fellowship with a lot of wonderful people who have been led astray and refuse to recognize it. So, sadly if the UMC chooses any path other than the a Traditionalist Plan, I will lose good friends and over 60 years invested as a UMC member. I will look to find another non-denominational church that focuses on taking God’s message of salvation into all the world.

Steve 88 days ago

Go to another church if that is your desire

When the UMC finally comes into the 21st century, actually, the last part of the 20th century it will vote to accept, in full inclusion, our LBGTQAI sisters and brothers. If the more regressive members wish to leave, that has to be their choice. We are are sorry to lose you, as we love you, we just disagree with your premises. However, join a denomination in which you feel the most comfortable.

Carla Skidmore 85 days ago

Then again.....

Perhaps you could just go to another church right now and then you wouldn't need to wait for the UMC to "finally come into the 21st century.

Dave 85 days ago

Or, a better option

Would be for the UMC to follow God’s Word as he has made clear to those who love him. The UMC could lead other broken denominations back to the Truth. Those that want to follow the secular humanism path, could leave the UMC as they are the ones who cannot live with the BOD as currently written.

Ps. Ourpremises are the Word of God for the people of God. What better premise could there be for a Church to follow?

Steve 85 days ago

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