The UMC Inquistion Arrived While the Centrists and Progressives Fiddled



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Poorly Done

“Hermeneutic of grace” is not consistent with this post. The camel’s nose story is 180 degrees off from what has been happening within the denomination over the last 40+ years, if one considers the camel to be apostasy within the denomination. I invite readers of this post to also read the August 15, 2018 post by Jessica LaGrone at titled “the Playing Field: Scripture and the Traditional Faith of the Church.” I found it to be a much more reasoned and graceful presentation on this subject.

Scott S more than 2 years ago

One big concern

I don't disagree with your issue with the camel's nose. It kind of applies here, but it can also apply in the other direction (depending on where you stand).

But that's not my issue. 'Apostasy' is a rather loaded word.

For an article here that refers to such a condition (and what that can really indicate) I recommend this:

JR more than 2 years ago

Vicious attacks will not sway church members

Calling dedicated pastors who believe and teach the historical and biblical truth of Methodism are not despicable. It IS despicable to levy vile attacks against those you disagree with. I don't here traditionalists saying and writing such nastiness against progressives. There can be disagreement while still showing respect for those you disagree with...

tim claus more than 2 years ago

You need to read a bit more

Have fun with that.

Plenty of nastiness on the conservative boards.

JR more than 2 years ago


Tim, you truly "don't hear traditionalists saying and writing such nastiness against progressives"?

Haven't you heard them preaching about LGBT folk? How we're all sinful and going to Hell?

Or isn't such preaching and teaching nasty enough for you?

Ben more than 2 years ago

The biggest problem with the UMC

Is that it lost sight that it is supposed to be only one small, unique part of the much larger and much more diverse holy catholic/universal Church. Historically, this is the first time that Methodism has tried to embrace multiple theologies.

And thank you for being honest and admitting that you never really thought you would have to continue to live alongside traditionalists but were hoping we would one day convert to your way of thinking or just disappear which would lead to its own progressive doctrinal purity. Doctrine is a specific set of beliefs from which a person operates from and progressives have their own set of doctrine/beliefs every bit as much as traditionalists.

betsy more than 2 years ago

Be Like Jesus

If you want to talk doctrine, let's be like Jesus. He and his disciples were fully observant Jews.

Ben more than 2 years ago

Seminary Purge Plan

Could you say exactly what you know about the "seminary purge plan" and how it will unfold?

Frank Ashton more than 2 years ago

Still wondering

Could the author give us a little more detail on how the UM seminaries will purged as were the Southern Baptists schools? This is a very important issue.

Frank Ashton more than 2 years ago

Inquisition? Detail deaths, tortures, incarcerations. Libs luv exaggeration!

On the other hand, we of the traditional side, have watched our church slipping away for decades. We allowed liberal seminaries to welcome and encourage non-“traditional” individuals to attain their positions to be clergy in a denomination which had published, unambiguous rules against homosexual clergy and marriage.
We, led by spineless or liberal bishops, ignored increasing numbers of homosexual clergy and their increasingly vocal opposition to our rules. With the appointment of an openly lesbian bishop, we realized that we had let it go far past the point where our rules meant anything.
So, now the inevitable end to the UMC. Had the One Church charade passed, traditionals would be in apoplectic rage just as the progressives are today. Our denomination is divided beyond reconciliation and, in the name of God, we need to accept the situation and deal with it using a minimum of funds and fights. Let us all go our own ways in Peace. I do not have to agree with the homosexual progressives to respect their rights to worship as they choose. Do they respect mine?

Reese more than 2 years ago

You certainly may worship as you choose

No one can stop you from doing so.
No one SHOULD stop you from doing so.

Can you admit that the 'rules' you hold so dear are actually stopping others from worshiping as they choose?
Can you admit that the basis for those 'rules', if taken to their logical conclusion, will exclude females in church leadership roles, and force out divorced persons? That the same basis was used to justify historical American Christian support of slavery?

Maybe the Methodists can be the one religion in the history of the world that can keep the FUN in Fundamentalism. I'm not holding my breath on that though.

JR more than 2 years ago

Indeed! I can admit that the BOD rules inhibit:

Those rules which do reflect the conservative values of generations do stop others from worshiping as they choose. That is why to me there is only one answer; split the denomination. I ain't changing and I'm sure you aren't either and we will never agree in this lifetime. The UMC as is has no future.

Reese more than 2 years ago

Wholly and fully agreed

Even though I'm not going to be a part of it, the UMC needs to split.

The real problem is that it needed to be discussing how to split for the past couple of GCs. Because where things are now, where they have been driven to, its only going to be ugly. There's not going to be a graceful way for this to end.

JR more than 2 years ago

Methodism as conceived by John Wesley

is not the same as modern fundamentalism. Setting up rules and accountability within a single faith tradition is not fundamentalism, it is how that particular sect decides to operate. And early Methodism was stringent in its doctrinal purity and accountability measures. Fundamentalism is something that is present in traditional and progressive understandings of Christianity; it is an extremist point of view that everybody who does not believe as I do is wrong. Although there are traditionalist fundamentalists in the UMC, those of us who simply disagree with the progressive way of thinking and believe you should be free to pursue your beliefs equally as much as we should be free to pursue ours are not fundamentalists saying you are wrong--we simply disagree with your understandings.

betsy more than 2 years ago

Hi Betsy

Methodism as conceived by Wesley is not fundamentalism.

Not all Traditionalists are fundamentalists.

Those running the WCA, Good News, etc? They are driving the cart here. And you are going to be caught up in that.

Remember your early Methodism, where there were no women preachers? That's coming. While divorce SHOULD be forbidden, it won't be (because it can be of benefit to those in power, just like in the OT). Racial purity is going to be tough for them to push, but I'd be willing to put a guess that within a decade you'll see some very specific dynamics where only minority congregations have minority pastors, and you'll see even less diversity among the leadership.

"Fundamentalism ... is an extremist point of view that everybody who does not believe as I do is wrong."

You might want to put up a sign on your wall with that. Something that can help remind you every day. I'm praying to God that I'm wrong about this, to be quite frank.

JR more than 2 years ago

Same deffinition

Liberals/Progressives:. An extreme point of view that everyone who doesn't believe as I do is wrong.

Dave more than 2 years ago

The thing is...

That betsy was wrong in the first place - her definition of Fundamentalism isn't even close to accurate.

"a form of a religion, especially Islam or Protestant Christianity, that upholds belief in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture."

That fits one side of the UMC argument only.

Your definition is something very different (there's certainly some overlap in a Venn diagram), but I don't know of the proper term for it offhand. Zealotry, perhaps?

JR more than 2 years ago

GC Demonstrations

And what do you make of the Progressive demonstrators who disrupted GC 2019 to the point that police intervention was required? Progressives do not accept people who do not believe as they do (and you are a prime example of that). Let's be real, everyone wants others to agree with them. It's time to stop throwing grenades at others.

Dave more than 2 years ago

Actually, Dave...

I'd have been content with the OCP, where each 'level' had some control. Whether it be the individual church, or the conference, etc.

I'm aware that different areas of the country and world have different values. I wouldn't personally want to live in some of those areas, but I can't legitimately tell them that they are wrong on most things. There's a lot of complexity in the world.

As far as the progressive demonstrators, I might not agree with their methods, but I'm not going to throw them under the bus there. They were fighting for a point of view to be heard, acknowledged, and addressed.

Likewise, from what I've read, the Traditionalists have a solid argument about how the CoWF pretty much ignored them in the push for the OCP.

I have felt all along that the Connectional Conference Plan was the only possible option to keep the UMC together.

I'm sorry if my response is too reasonable for the interwebs.

JR more than 2 years ago

LGBT Progressive Here

Reese, I respect your right to worship as you choose, and think and believe as you choose, as long as you and yours do not enshrine your beliefs about the LGBT community (or any other minority community, for that matter) in the Book of Discipline.

I am a Big Tent Church sort of person. A progressive LGBT. I am happy to share the UMC with you - but you cannot be allowed to trash me and mine in the BOD.

Take the ugly words out of the BOD. Let's live and let live. We can share a pew.

Ben more than 2 years ago