The Answer To: 'Does The UMC Have A Future?'



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And I apologize for us "Bible believers"

who are such a huge disappointment to you because we do not measure up to your expectations of what Christians are supposed to be. Reality is we are all flawed humans trying our best to live into our understandings of what God expects of us in this world and as usual we have ended up making a huge mess of things and falling way short of God's hope and intention for us. And that includes every one of us--progressive and traditionalist. Right now I do not want to be in the same church with any of you and this insane argument that should have never become the do or die issue for the church.

betsy more than 2 years ago


So, Betsy, what would you and your Bible Believers do with those of us who are intersex, neither male nor female? G-d made us this way!!!

Do my ambiguous genitalia imply, in your Bible Believing mind, that I am hated by G-d? Going to Hell? Unsuitable for ordination?

What about bathrooms? Am I allowed to use them? Men's, women's, or none at all?

B more than 2 years ago

I feel your frustration and disappointment

That the UMC is not the infallible institution you wanted it to be. Right now I am dealing with my own disappointment and frustration that I vested a chunk of my adult life in what has turned out to be a failing institution with absolutely no clear idea of what it is it needs to be doing. And I am a white female heterosexual traditionalist. Reality is this mess is not my fault, this is not your fault, this is nobody's fault that is currently living. It is the result of decades of theological plurality. We are reaping what our predecessors sowed a long time ago! No one group created this situation it took everybody. So get over your anger at traditionalists and start thinking constructively at how we can best get out of this mess that absolutely nobody wanted!

betsy more than 2 years ago


Get over my anger at traditionalists? UMC traditionalists have been hating me since 1972.

I am intersex, living proof that human sexuality is non-binary.

Get over it and let me live as G-d made me.

B more than 2 years ago


Get over my anger at traditionalists? UMC traditionalists have been hating me since 1972.

I am intersex, living proof that human sexuality is non-binary.

Get over it and let me live as G-d made me.

B more than 2 years ago

Loving your enemies is the best course of action.

I'm grieved that it does not appear that Reverend Thomas will get what she desires from the UMC. If it had gone the other way, I would be grieved for those that in that scenario did not get what they desired.

Loving your enemies is a profound idea. It's difficult. Not everyone can walk that path. Just so very difficult to place someone else wants ahead of one's own wants. Who knows, maybe GC 2020, realigns the "winners" and "losers". I just feel that the real winners will be the ones that get this idea of loving the unlovely and practicing it. Each of us defines for ourselves who is the enemy and the unlovely.

There is a peace that comes with deciding to love others regardless of our personal desires. In the UMC that is expressed by desiring to be in unity with your neighbors within your annual conference. The United Methodist Church is, as it was planned, a confederation of annual conferences. As those annual conferences grapple with a very difficult decision, I have chosen to love my neighbors regardless of what the consensus view within the our annual conference ends up being.

Anonymous more than 2 years ago


How can I, an intersex person, love the people of the UMC who have placed bigoted statements about me and those like me in the Book of Discipline? I've been living, despite this hatred against me, since 1972.

Remove the anti-GLBTIQ whatever language from the BoD, and then we can live side-by-side in peace.

B more than 2 years ago

So What I See

So you are saying some have broken our rules affirming morality for so long that accountability seems like a “takeover” to them. There is really a lot to be said for a moral life. Jesus lived a moral life. Let's follow Him in every way and the rewards will be great!

So what I see is Progressives destroying the flock, people I love and that God loves do dearly. I hear God in the Bible saying “They destroy My people.” How can we ever get along together? How can I be quiet when I see people all around being destroyed by evil? I feel compelled to call people back to “the Way” and this is so urgent, not a moment to waste.

Skipper more than 2 years ago

Out of curiosity...

"I hear God in the Bible saying 'They destroy My people.' "

Is that before or after God in the Bible wiping out humanity (except for a chosen few), or wiping out vast chunks of His people because they weren't obedient, or were not told the rules (like how to drink from the river), or contracted leprosy and cast out from society?

What I hear is Jesus saying "Love God, and Love Each Other". Even your enemies. Embrace them, feed them, love them. Show grace, show forgiveness, show love, and pray for them.

And that whole 'Love your Neighbor' idea? That's straight out of Leviticus 19:18 - "You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord."

This clearly is an OT inference that your neighbor is one of your own people - your tribe or community. Jesus turned that on its head, entirely (which he did fairly often).

But maybe you want to ask yourself - is your version of Love Thy Neighbor the OT one or the NT one?

JR more than 2 years ago

God Is Love, Yes

God is love, yes, but God is also holy. He is concerned about His people being destroyed in both the Old Testament and the N.T. In Matthew 5:29 Jesus says “If you right eye causes you to sin, poke it out and throw it away. It is better to lose one part of your body, than for your whole body to end up in hell.” While “poke it out” is an exaggeration, Jesus is advising us to remove temptation to evil – no matter what the cost. So, Jesus is very serious about our need for self-discipline on sexuality (marriage was the general topic). He wants us to be part of the kingdom, but warns us the gate to life is very narrow. Jesus came to live out the scriptures of the Old Testament in perfect obedience and joy (saying he did not come to do away with the Law and Prophets). You well noted the love and forgiveness we are called to, but since holiness and obedience don't go away in the New Testament, they need to be considered as well.

Skipper more than 2 years ago

A Bowl Full of Peaches

So, everything in the New Testaments is not a bowl full of peaches with whipped cream on top, as Progressives may think. C.S. Lewis wrote that anyone who reads the Sermon on the Mount and is not filled with fear does not understand what Jesus was saying.

R.C. Sproul reminds us that Jesus Christ was not a first-century “Mr. Rogers,” but “an individual Who is declaring the eternal fate of every man, woman, and child on the planet. He is pronouncing that those who are persecuted of His sake will be blessed by the Father, and those who reject His message will be forever cursed ...” He calls Matthew 7:21-23 the scariest verse in the Bible to him and also the climax of the sermon:

“Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,”
shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Many will say to Me in that day,
“Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name,
cast out demons in Your name,
and done many wonders in Your name?”
And then I will declare to them,
“I never knew you, depart from Me,
you who practice lawlessness!”

R.C. Sproul goes on to say:

“This is not a pleasant sermon on morality. Jesus' words were alarming and strong. He was telling His listeners that there was no wall separating works and faith. His kingdom required both obedience and a personal relationship with the Father. To reject this would result in eternal lostness: So much of being nice.”

Skipper more than 2 years ago

Lose one part?

I was born intersex. I am physiologically neither male nor female. What would you do, kill me so as to protect your myth of the human binary?

GLBTI people were created by G-d in his image. I was created by G-d in his image.

How dare you say or imply otherwise? How dare you imply I am evil or sinful for existing as G-d made me?

B more than 2 years ago


So I, an intersex person from birth, am evil? G-d created me evil? I am "destroying G-d's flock"?

Listen to yourself!

Human sexuality is non-binary. This is a scientific FACT.

GLBT are made perfect by G-d.

B more than 2 years ago

Intersexed or undeveloped?

Having worked in reproductive genetics for 40 years, I would be inclined to call the person in question male. In the absence of chromosomal abnormality or the presence of ovarian tissue it is difficult to make a female determination based on what we know of this case. Of course, the person is entitled to medical privacy as the rest of us. This is not a case similar to when the Nazis entered a long haired man into the Olympics as a female runner or the Polish medalist runner known as Stella Walsh, who was discovered to be entirely male after death. More common cases are that of androgen insensitivity where the patient seems female by all external appearances despite being genetically male. These patients are often discovered when they fail to menstruate. There was a time when these were told that they were infertile females rather than the devastating news that they were males.

What upsets people are not cases such as this, but where physically normal persons decide to become the opposite gender. I have never understood the motivation for this given the surgery and potentially dangerous hormone treatments. There are differences in the male and female brains and one could conceivably ended up with the wrong one. However, we live in a society where people can pursue interests and occupations associated with the opposite sex. I do wonder at times if this is an extreme fetish.

David more than 2 years ago

But David

1) You aren't transgendered, so I can see why it might be tough for you to 'understand the motivation'. (Knowing a few might help too)

2) There's not a bit of wording in the changes to the BoD that calls out Transgendered. It's all about homosexuality, which has been viewed in nature. Transgendered has been lumped in with them as an expression of sexuality away from the norm.

Calling back to your tenure in reproductive genetics, would you have viewed this person the same in 1980 as you do today? I'm pretty sure the science has changed quite significantly since then.

JR more than 2 years ago

Male trapped in a female body

Many years ago I was a student nurse and had my Pediatric rotation at a large NY Hospital. We saw many babies whose sex was undetermined or ambiguous. They had both male and female genitalia, albeit the genitalia was small for the age of the child. In those days, prior to DNA testing, urine was collected for a week, then it was tested for hormone levels and only then was it determined if the child was male or female, or both.

Carla Skidmore more than 2 years ago


Carla, the situation is now recognized as far more complex than simple hormone levels. There are XY males with female genitals. There are XX females with male genitals. More so, there are genitals of every variety in between male and female.

Take me: I have massive dangerous chromosomal translocations - not on my sex chromosomes, but on autosomes! - and those translocations caused my intersex condition.

So, what am I?

B more than 2 years ago