Has 'Homosexual' Always Been in the Bible?

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I have struggled with this topic for years....

Thre anti-homosexual teachings of the church never felt right to me. I went to Bible College for 5 years and it still seemed incorrect, no matter what my professors (whom I loved and respected) taught. This article has made all my prayers and personal studies line up. I thank God for people who aren't scared to question theological norms. I mean God can handle it right? Or He isn't God. (a truth I learned at a young age thanks to Ken Walker, my buddy and theological mentor. [Let me make this point though, he didn't, ro my knowledge, believe this. Although, I'd hope he would give it a look and change his mind]

Im always open to discussion. We are, unfortunately, all flawed humans that can get things wrong. As evidenced in this article. 🧡

Jamie Curtis (not that one) 130 days ago

Something To Consider

The Bible was God's message to humanity, but he didn't write it. Humans wrote it, and they probably had certain biases, so even if homosexuality was in the original version, it may have just been one of the writers who had a bias or hate for homosexuals.

A Bisexual 140 days ago

Agreeing with Something to Consider

We see this in the gospels, as the same events are told with different eyes and recounted with a differing emphasis according to the writer. So why wouldn't translators also be influenced by their own slants, denominations or backgrounds? It is easy to see that cultural trends and events would sway words, even as punctuation does, and the definitions which we see can changed the emphasis of the original text. Great interview with Ed Oxford.

Sheri Samson 40 days ago

I know!

Exactly, human's allways have biases, saints or no

Elliott miller 28 days ago

this article is so misleading

Wow I like how this article uses the modern-day German translation of Leviticus 18:22 instead of the original HEBREW translation which uses the word zakar = male(as in gender) when it says, "Do not have sexual relations with a man[zakar] as one does with a woman; that is detestable." This whole article is based off the word "arsenokoitai" which isn't even a Hebrew word, it's a Greek word.
For those who are going to not listen to the facts and try to attack my character: No. I'm not homophobic. Hate the sin, love the sinner. That's what Jesus does. My sister is living a gay lifestyle and I love her regardless.

Luke 271 days ago

There is a huge difference in a cultural context

I get exactly what you mean, and I think this video explains it greatly. Because we are dealing with hundreds of years of cultural differences, it’s important to understand the context surrounding those times. I myself am not very good at explaining things, so please have a look at this video, it’s only 10 minutes and it explains the meaning of the original Hebrew translation in the context of the surrounding culture: https://youtu.be/wtCuLo-MGS4

Delia 267 days ago

Reply

I'm sorry friend but love and hate cannot exist together. BTW Jesus never said "hate the sin, love the sinner."

KC 256 days ago

not true...

Actually, love and hate can exist together, they are like two sides of a coin. And he never stated that Jesus said "hate the sin, love the sinner". He merely said that that's what Jesus does. And that's true.

Josh 243 days ago

Love

You are basing that on the opposite of hate being love. That is untrue. Love, by definition is unconditional and has no opposite. Once we place conditions upon it, it is no longer love. The opposite of hate is tolerance.

Robb Conner 28 days ago

arsenokoitai

I don't know Greek. I understand that the first translation of the Hebrew version is Greek and that Greek is a very precise language. I got this info from a friend who has PhD in Semitic languages and biblical studies. So, I'm comfortable with the information given by United Methodist Insight.

Edgar Triay 231 days ago

Correct reference to Greek not Hebrew

From what I understand the Greek word arsenokoitai was used as that was the language in which Paul was speaking Greek. Paul wrote his epistles to Romans, Ephesians, Colossians, Ephesians, etc., but always in Greek, a language they all understood. And it goes without saying that he wanted his readers to understand what he was saying. Read comment by Bill Carey at: https://www.quora.com/How-has-usage-of-the-term-arsenokoitai-changed-over-time-and-does-the-word-appear-anywhere-other-than-the-Bible#_%3D_

SB 167 days ago

Language

The codexes in which the modern Bible is made up of was written in 4 dead languages composed over 4,000 years. You stated the "Hebrew" translation in your post trying to make an argument, well Hebrew is not one of the original languages. The article talks about the German and Greek translation and the research was done on those translations. I think your comments are taken out of context. It's like comparing apples to oranges. The point of the article is that fear of homosexuality is a modern interpretation and is based in hate with the goals only of suppression. During a time period where blacks and women were also being suppressed.

Dana Hannabass 219 days ago

Huh?

The Old Testament was written in HEBREW. What the first comment said is correct, it's like someone says

The sky is blue-black in Chinese and then someone translated it into English saying the sky is bluish-black and then translated into French the sky is bluish-black.
All they did in the 1940's was formatted it to the original translation, which is the sky is blue-back.


The Greek meaning isn't important. The HEBREW one is.

M 202 days ago

Thank You

Well stated.

Gian T Curry 213 days ago

Sin versus the sinner

Jesus may have said to love and forgive the sinner...he did NOT however espouse hating the sin...that is a later belief out of the mouth of Ghandi in 1929...the way Jesus taught was closely linked to his teaching being non-judgemental - Luke 6:37 and MT 7:1

David Lewis 168 days ago

have fun with this info.

you know what sounds pretty gay in general, getting on your knees for jesus. jesus also had two dads AND a mom. sounds like a poly relationship. also, according to the bible and other Christians, god doesnt go by a single/any gender. sounds like non-binary.

SC 164 days ago

Love it

I love this comment! It’s perfect

Isaiah 159 days ago

Did you ever think maybe a scholar knows more about the original Biblical languages that you?

The books of the Christian New Testament are widely agreed to have originally been written in Greek, specifically Koine Greek, even though some authors often included translations from Hebrew and Aramaic texts.

No Y B 138 days ago

Question

Zakar is a Hebrew word from the Old Testament meaning to remember, recall, or call to mind.

Is this not the actual translation?

Curiosity 125 days ago

We love you, too

Love the Christian, Hate the Church.

“Hate the sin, love the sinner”
Love the Christian, hate the church

Hope 119 days ago

Why'd it change from male to young boys?

I understand and agree we need to look at this from the first language it was translated to, but I'm confused why it was changed from 'male' to 'boy molester' since it shouldn'tve been hard to change it from 'male' to 'man' in Greek.

Josette 112 days ago

Bible

Thank you. My son is gay and is using this writers research as truth. I love my son reguardless. I don’t want him burning in the lake of fire because of the gay man that didn’t do his research. Gamorrah says it all.

Anna 20 days ago

Cant wait to show this to my dad

I am using sources like these to write an argumentive essay for school, which I got the inspiration from the fact that I am Bisexual with a very conservative Christan family on my dad's side of the family, including him(My mom is the complete opposite, that's why their divorced :P) and have not come out yet. Don't get me wrong I believe in God, but also believe just being yourself, being happy, and loving everyone is not a sin, but in fact, the homophobic Karen attitude is the sin. Anyway, I think I'm going to send my essay to him. Also, thank you for writing this, I didn't know that it wasn't all bibles and just the more recent ones, I'm trying to educate myself before I have to fight for my life against a mob of conservative Christians.

rather not have my family find this 285 days ago

I LOVE THiS

OMG yES SAMEE

Melody 272 days ago

The essay

I'm curious about this essay. Care to share? Btw, I'm also a bisexual Christian and my father is a pastor so I know how you feel!

JT 124 days ago

What about the origin?

In the Jewish Torah, which is considered the most ancient and reliable source, it says "ואת זכר לא תשכב משכבי אשה תועבה הוא"
Or in free translate to English "and male you shall not lay in the ways of woman. That is abomination"
Lay in Hebrew is usually a term for sexual intercourse, and the common explanation for "the ways of woman" is penetration.
Do you have any idea what happened there?

Oceansoul 302 days ago

The Goal of Leviticus

One way to look at your question is that the book of Leviticus was about setting boundaries. Specifically to help separate the people following early Jewish tradition from some of the of unhealthy neighboring cultures that still engaged in things like human sacrifice, had more rampant diseases, and other lifestyles that, at the time, hindered the ability of a people group to carry out Shalom. So Leviticus laid out a path that centered around discipline to create healthier community, family, and economic structures while preventing disease.
With the groundwork for marriage already laid out, A man who got a woman pregnant would then take on an active male family role, as was tradition, to ensure the survival of that family unit. Woman culturally played a passive part and to stray from that cultural norm too much may not have invited people to help gradually shift understanding of equality which is the one of the larger stories we see unfolding throughout the bible.
So the translation for "ways of a woman", although would in part involve the passive sexual role in marriage, in a larger conceptual way, refers to the passive relationship role. The problem for early culture was that if men had sex with another men one would be taking a passive relational role but there was no potential for child bearing and no social structure to encourage monogamy (which did wonders back then at curbing STIs). Because understanding of sexual identity (straight or gay) doesn't emerge until the 16th century no one would consider marring the same sex, it would just led to potential disease spreading without bearing children to pass on genetics and traditions (a societal double whammy back them). So the intent of leviticus is to preserve and set aside that culture in a way so that it could be a driving force for positive changes to understanding equality across all forms of identity in the future.
Given the lens of our culture now and our current challenges, as opposed to the old testament times, the broader concept of men having a passive relationship role is rather mute, since technology has allowed higher mortality and immunity to a lot of things that plagued early human cultures, the the necessity of monogamy and Male Active family structures is less relevant. For example, if a man takes a passive role in relationship today (i.e. stay at home dad while mom focuses on career), we accept that as a healthy alternative to the traditional family structure. And now 2 gay parents can also provide a healthy family structure that was never even conceptually possible in those times.
This is what is so beautiful about the message of the bible; acceptance, equality, and compassion. At the time these cultures may only have considered socio-economics and race to apply, but it set a foundation for all future identities which we now accept (such as gender or disability equality) and now sexuality is the hot topic.

Nate 261 days ago

Just a question/thought

I understand what is being said, my question is, what about Genesis 19. Is this translated as wrong as well. The Bible mentions talks about the men of Sodom wanting to know the men / angels that went to Lot's house. It says young and old wanted them, and then goes on to say that Lot referred to this as wickedness. So much so that it says Lot offered his daughters, but the men didn't want them. It makes this verse in Roman's make sense "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Romans 1:27 KJV
So I guess my question is, is this passage in Genesis misinterpreted.

Jonathan Blackwell 314 days ago

the "sin" of Sodom wasn't homosexuality

it was pride.

Chris Morton 313 days ago

Show me...

Show me where you see the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was pride. Also this till doesn't answer my question. About Lot and the angels or the passage on Roman's i mentioned.
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."
Jude 1:7 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/jud.1.7.KJV

Jonathan Blackwell 312 days ago

rape is ok?

I love that in Genesis it's ok to give your young daughters to be raped but not ok for two men to love each other.....

Jo 266 days ago

Your question/thought from Genesis

A common alternative interpretation to the sins present here that I may hear from individuals is gang rape and lack of hospitality. In many Middle Eastern cultures hospitality and the defense of guests is of utmost importance and is a thing of honor. This being why the daughters were offered to sacrifice themselves to the mob instead as the disguised angels were Lot's guests.

Kyle Trapp 277 days ago

Praise the Lord

Guys, I personally think that homosexuality is wrong but that's with my research, pastors, parents, and God's revelations. I think the way we can also take it is that homosexuality is a wrong desire just like stealing, lying, fornication, or adultery. I think that if you really want to know the truth I just recommend you ask God through prayer because he will answer. I think you should ask God because he is the only person you can trust. It says in the Bible that many will be deceived so take caution in what truths you do and do not take in. God wants us to be in heaven with him so he will do everything to make sure you are on the right path. I hope you have a great rest of the day and thank you for reading!

Kezia 323 days ago

Homosexuality

Girl take your homophobia out of the door

Victoria Diamond 322 days ago

Homophobia

why do you think homosexuality is wrong and that it's a "wrong desire"?, genuinely curious to learn why by the way

Anathema 321 days ago

Bisexuality

I was raised to think homosexuality is wrong, that it is a mental disease and that is disgusting and unhealthy. So when I realized I was bisexual, I began to hate myself. I tried so hard to be straight, but that just isn't me. It got to the point where I thought God hated me, and I genuinely wanted to end my own life. I was so anxious and tormented by these thoughts. One day I got the courage to actually ask Him if it was okay that I was bi, if it was wrong, if I was "wrong." The immediate peace and love that washed over me was incredible. Literally all of my anxiety melted away in an instant, and I heard a still small voice say "yes, it's okay; you're not wrong, you are loved." I have never felt more free to be myself. So, if you asked God if homosexuality is wrong and He said yes, in my opinion I don't think that was Him talking to you...

Ashton 313 days ago

Wow

Though I am gay. I had almost the exact same experience.. It got to a point where I asked God directly one day, to either kill me or answer me. I wasn't sure what I was about to do, if I am honest. I don't think I have the courage to end my own life. But my life wasn't going to continue the path I was on. But the description of the feeling you felt in an immediate response.. matches my own.
And afterward, my life became so much better. I have since been employed, and recently married my partner. We found each other through the strangest series of circumstances.

Jesse Shepherd 220 days ago

Your wrong

It's not your place to judge sir. That's where a lot of Christians go wrong. Scripture is not perfect by any means. I hope God answered your prayers and tells you the truth. May God be with you.

Jeremy Blagdon 304 days ago

Homosexuality

Thank you

Jeffrey Carnes-Jones 220 days ago

Jesus

I think that perhaps instead of focusing on what god thinks and tells you through prayer, you should focus on how Jesus treated people and loved everyone.
I really think that far too much time is focused on what a God may have said to one man and not what Jesus showed to so many people in so many different circumstances that are frowned upon.

Just be accepting, humble and kind. Show love when faced with hate and accept people as they come. It is not our job to judge anyone else. Just be loving and kind.

So stop being homophobic and judging what you don’t know. Research is not talking with people who think the same way you do and coming to an conclusion that way.

Ingrid 258 days ago

Wrong Desire

Do you see that all the wrong desires you listed harm another person. However, homosexuality does not harm another person. It is a choice between consenting adults.

Angelina 255 days ago

Wrong Desire

I'm sorry Angelina but I have to correct just one thing you said homosexuality is not a choice it is the way you are born.

Kimberly 250 days ago

In god's opinion you are going to hell

Stealing, lying, fornication, and adultery all hurt other people, and that is why they are sins. Jesus spread God's message of living a lifestyle of love and loving in a community. Homosexuality is a form of love and DOES NOT HURT ANYONE. Hurting others damages love, and that includes homophobia. The Bible is not something to refer to and live by word for word; it is a collection of lessons to live a life of love and happiness, without hate or spite. God created heaven for the loving and accepting who do not judge or hurt other people for things beyond their control. hell is for people who spread hate and diminish love in other people.

Alice 205 days ago

True

Exactly my thoughts nobody knows the exact version of the Bible nobody knows what was truly written hurting people in anyway or form is and should be what a sin should be described as homosexuality is a form of love and nobody gets hurt or anything I don't know what's Soo wrong about being gay

Gemini 116 days ago

Your God’s Reply

Kezia, I replied to your prayer multiple times and told you that homosexuality is fine. Having people like you that look to me for EVERYTHING is not what I intended. You’re definitely one of those people that when a family member goes through open heart surgery you thank me instead of the actual doctors who performed the incredible feat. “Ahhh, but it was God’s plan.” Actually my plan was to create humanity and have many people come together as one; love and strive to be better for the greater good.

God 205 days ago

Original words and word’s origin

God loves everyone, and I don't know enough to provide anything of value except for this (presuming it hasn't yet been mention): The word "homosexual" was even coined until around 1868-1869. I'm not aware of too many, if any, translations of the Bible written between 1868 and the 1940’s. Certainly the word wouldn’t be in any translation before 1868 since it never existed before then. One has to look at the definition of the original words in whatever translation. (…And yes, I’m aware argument that the word “male” in Lev 18:22 supposedly means “male child”, but it is the SAME used in Gen 1:27. God created a man, not a child.) I don’t care what most people believe – it’s a free country, but I find it offensive when they are deceptive in representing the Bible to try to justify their beliefs (this goes for the “conservatives”, as well.)

PJ 323 days ago

Latin and Old English

So, I was looking through the Tyndale Bible and a Latin translation and found that the passages mentioned above still say "man with man" rather than "man with boy." I myself am a bisexual Christian, and this is the exact article I bring up when arguing that homosexuality isn't sinful, but now I'm having doubts.

Valentine Ainsley 349 days ago

Translations from Original Language

Hi Valentine, the original language, which is Hebrew, says man with "zakar", which is usually translated as "male" instead of man. Throughout the OT, "zakar" is most often translated as the male of a species (human or animal) but is also translated six times as "man-child". It is relatively unclear, as tradition has held multiple interpretations, but certainly possible. Also note that Paul's use of the word "arsenokoites" seems to be a direct reference to this word from the Greek translation of the Hebrew OT. We can't get hung up on translations that aren't the original language, and also have to ask for God's wisdom in interpretations, since interpretation belongs to God (Genesis 40:8).

Jen 346 days ago

What about Roman's 1:18-32?

What about Roman's 1:18-32?

Angela 341 days ago

On the word "Christian"

There are plenty of Christians in Germany. Lutheran Christians, Catholic Christians, Calvinist Christians....

Alissa Mower Clough more than 1 year ago

Other languages

What about the Hebrew bible? It clearly says man. I myself am gay and would love to understand this

Mark more than 1 year ago

About having sex in ancient times

The commandment say "Thou shalt not fornicate", or whatever it is in English. That basically means that you are not supposed to have sex with your neighbour’s property, be it a wife, a daughter or a slave. It does not mean you are not supposed to have sex with your own wives or slaves as you please. The reason for that command is that this behaviour incites unrest and mutual hatred within the population. This all is irrelevant when you cannot own other people.

Krzysztof Żelechowski more than 1 year ago

Timothy, Corinthians, Romans

I forgot to mention this in my previous question.. but what about the New Testament..? Timothy, Corinthians, Romans... they all mention it too

Madison more than 1 year ago

t

Check the bottom of page one, it says I Corinthians

Technologic_Wave more than 1 year ago

Leviticus 20:13 and Knabenschänder

Hi, I have grown up in a Christian family my whole life,, I also identify as a lesbian Christian. My father works for a large International Christian organization as VP and has received years and years of high level education about the Bible. He also knows a lot of Ancient Greek and ancient Hebrew. I was planning on bringing this subject up to him to have him evaluate it (currently, he believes homosexuality is a sin). However, there are a few things I would need to know in order to do so. First of all, what about Leviticus 20:13? Should that section of the Bible be changed to boy molester as well? Also, the German word Knabenschänder has had multiple meanings, buggerer, sodomite, and pederast. So which one would it be? I agree, context is important, but sodomite and pederast would make sense in this context.

Madison more than 1 year ago

10 Commandments and then some.

You would think that if homosexuality was so against God, he might have left it as a commandment. He also doesn’t leave premarital sex in a commandment. What you will discover is that the Bible wasn’t all written in the same year, decade, or century. Each deposit in the Bible is made in a different time and location. The Bible acts more to lend credence to the laws of the land than it does to actually prescribe a lifestyle God would want you to have.

First, let’s suppose God’s first language isn’t English, as in Adam and Eve did not speak English, so why would God? Then let’s suppose that from the original language of scripture to Hebrew was simply one translation of it as it spread. Then form Hebrew to English was another. Imagine the history of those languages, as in origin point and evolution as living languages. As we progress through the time, words come to take on different meanings based on how we translate them.

Watson, for example in Sherlock Holmes, ejaculated all the time in his speech. It’s a term of spouting off in excitement words to express such. (“That’s incredible” I ejaculated!)

Gay was not a word used to describe homosexuals originally either, nor was f*ggot. But we took words and adjusted meaning. In fact, if you search any translation of the Bible, the word “homosexual” never even comes up. It didn’t exist. Sure, they describe an act, but again, you are basing it on age.

Lastly, God would not make it a test of your faith to deny you that which you are attracted to. If God creates, then God creates perfectly. Animals engage in homosexual behavior, too, as well as changing genders. Natural world, if you need references search green tree frog, which will change genders to manage population. Male lions will “hook up” when not in a pride (and sometimes when in one).

Lastly, the most common mistake is calling the X and Y chromosome the “sex” or “gender” chromosome, as you can have XXY, XYY etc, and you don’t get extra appendages, usually (see “super-male” research studies) and what they found and didn’t find.

Born LGBTQ+ is no different than being born straight, nor is it different than being born with an extra chromosome. You are not a test for the world, you are a human being and as intended.

By the way, if you accept the Bible verbatim then you don’t understand it. Very few stories are HISTORICAL, but as parables correctly interpreted can bring you much peace.

Cain and Abel, a case in point. Is the moral of the story that Cain killed Abel out of jealousy, or is it that two people who believe in God and love God be so very different in the approach and action?

Read the story of the two brothers and tell me what you think. Does it maybe reflect on the rest of the Word?

Anthony more than 1 year ago

HOMOSEXUALITY

"There is an inherit distrust of the medical community by individuals who do not conform to societal norms with respect to gender because of a perception that the medical community does not understand the unique challenges of these individuals. Therefore, reducing the social stigma associated with gender nonconforming individuals is one way to begin to break down barriers of distrust and enhance communication within and outside the medical community. In this review, we discuss the scant amount of scientific data on the biological origins of gender identity. We highlight the fact that the biological definition of gender remains elusive in part because molecular and biological techniques have not been available to accurately probe the development of gender identity. We therefore advocate for the importance of enhancing our knowledge of the origins of gender identity with advanced scientific tools. Enhancing scientific understanding of the biological origins of gender identity may reduce stigma and barriers to care."
ª 2020 Mayo Foundation for Medical Education and Research. Published by Elsevier Inc. This is an open access article under the CC BY-NC-ND. Sexual immorality, fornication, incest is very clear in scripture regardless of what sex you feel you are. Marriage also is between a man and woman. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. "But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong." "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He has taken the wise in their craftiness." So, crafty exerting the brain to justify behavior.


george glaser 353 days ago

Reaction to your Anthony's comment

I've never been raised christian but I'm baptized as Calvinist. So I'm not sure I fully got some of the biblical stuff you said, and I'm still out on trial about some things like that. But I can genuinely say I agree with all the human compassion/empathy for others and biology you brought into it. If nature does it, it has a purpose. My country, Hungary, is voting on a changing our constitutional law to give 'right' to every child to grow up in a christian home and get a christian upbringing (meaning mandatory bible study in schools), and this new law would also define parents as a male and female, making it impossible for gay, single or trans, people to adopt. Mean while one of our conservative politicians was caught climbing out a window butt-naked, drugged up, trying to get away from a unisex orgy he was at in Brussels. At this point I'm laughing at everything that's happening here to stop from crying. I don't have a problem with conservatives or clergy or religious people. It just bugs me when some one is 'drinking wine and preaching water' as we say here.

TravellerHearthfull 326 days ago

How about the other two

From the article ... "4 of the 6 clobber passages, all these nations and translations were referring to pederasty" ... what about the other two? Thank you.

Eric more than 1 year ago

Have you actually read Leviticus 20:13?

From the article: "So we went to Leviticus 18:22 and he’s translating it for me word for word. In the English where it says “Man shall not lie with man, for it is an abomination,” the German version says “Man shall not lie with young boys as he does with a woman, for it is an abomination.” I said, “What?! Are you sure?” He said, “Yes!” Then we went to Leviticus 20:13— same thing, “Young boys.”"

Um... Have you read Leviticus 20:13?

NIV translation says, Leviticus 20 "13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." The article says it should be translated more like: ""13 “‘If a man has sexual relations with a young boy as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Killing two adult males for consenting homosexual contact is psychopathic. But how can you possibly think it's better if it actually means 'kill an adult male rapist and their underage male rape victim?' Seriously?
Think for crying out loud! How can you think that's better?

The Bible was written by psychopaths. Look elsewhere for good ethical advice.

Karl Johanson more than 1 year ago

Question

I understand what you're saying, and I would like to see the author of this article address Leviticus 20:13. However, can I ask, are the Bible's views on homosexuality your primary reason for saying that it 'was written by psychopaths'? I want to understand how you came to that conclusion.

Shandi Warren more than 1 year ago

Brainwashing

My guess on why they’d both be put to death is because of a man raping a boy could potentially brain wash the boy into thinking the act is ok when it’s not and would be that death may be the only way to shock the person into repentance. Or man ruins boy in such a way that death is seen as a blessing which is really very sad. This is my guess.

Jazz 348 days ago

Help

My family are Jehovah’s witnesses and I was always taught gay=bad. But I’m very gay and desperately want a wife but also for god to love me. Can u show me proof god will still love me if I marry a woman?

Ren more than 1 year ago

Help

Ren, I don’t know much about religion, but if there is an all powerful god, that god made you just as you are. If you’re gay, and finding a wife would make you happy, you should do so, and Any higher power would be fine with you acting the way they created you. A higher power that would make you feel this way, then punish you for acting on the feeling they gave you would be no steroid, and not worthy of your faith anyway.

Dave more than 1 year ago

Gay and a wife?

You say you want a wife but you are gay. Why do you want a wife? Do you have the right to put an innocent person through your search for yourself or for marrying her for the wrong reasons? Better you remain unmarried until you figure it out. Don't ruin another person's life just because you are still finding yourself, it isn't loving and it isn't fair.

Fraser Crest more than 1 year ago

Gay

"desperately want a wife but also for god to love me."

I think Ren might be a lesbian?

L more than 1 year ago

And then

Hello,
When you said, “ Don't ruin another person's life just because you are still finding yourself,” it brought a thought to my mind. Half of my friends who have been married are now divorced and most have said they were “find themselves.” I’m so glad you posted this comment because it makes me wonder, why is it any different for Ren? Two of these friends ended up in a same sex relationship, so it’s just flip-flopped. Great point, thanks for the discussion.

Alex DiMira more than 1 year ago

Curious

Would you like to discuss your religious views, as well as the Christian Gospel?

Shandi Warren more than 1 year ago

God and Homosexualality

There is no mention of homosexual after Hebrews 8:13, which is the New Covenant - Jesus died on the cross for all sin. Adulteries, fornication, ect. I do no believe homosexuals are in sin when in love....Plus if it was sin, Love supersedes and covers a lot of sin. Also, Sodom and Gomorrah and scripture about man laying with man had to do with elder men with adolescent boys, usually in a violent manner like rape. If the scriptures were literally meaning fornicators, adulterers', homosexuals, and the list goes on..will be condemned or put to death...well....you can figure there is a whole lot of us that will not see the Kingdom of God. There be so few going to Heaven that there'd be no need for a heaven.

William E Van Ooyen 365 days ago

God’s Love

Ren
The proof of Gods love for you is in Jesus. God has expressed his love for sinners, not good people, on that cross. Nothing we can do or leave undone can gain for us God’s love. It has always existed as an unconditional quality of who He is. How we decide to live is met in the command “to love our neighbor as ourselves.” Every loving parent knows that their children do not earn their love based upon their behavior. They are loved regardless of it. True, the child has a different perception since they are rewarded for some acts and punished for others. Never the less, any child who believes he is loved because of how he lives or unloved because of it has never been a parent. It is also the greatest delight of a parent to see their children live in love with each other. This should be the greatest influencer of our decisions. How can I best express God’s unconditional love that I have received in Jesus to those around me. Abba loves you just as you are. This cannot be argued by anyone who is experiencing it. I hope you will experience yourself very soon. Praying for that!

Alan more than 1 year ago

gay=bad

If god was "all-knowing", then wouldn't he/she know ahead of time what Eve was going to do? Then that throws out the all-loving because that's just a cruel joke if god did know and did it anyways. So either god isn't all-knowing or all-loving. Which one is it? Love who you want as long as you're both willing adults. I believe there's more than likely a higher power, but not some judgmental jerk that punishes you for how they made you.

Amanda more than 1 year ago

Yes, God will still love you.

God IS love. He loves everyone. And He commands that WE love everyone. No exceptions.

Lucina 331 days ago

Why doesn’t the Bible regulate homosexuality as it does heterosexuality?

I read your entire article, and I have a question. If the Bible is the word of God (which is one of my presuppositions), and if God permits consensual homosexual relationships between adults (which seems to be what this article is implying), why doesn’t God govern homosexual relations the way he does heterosexual ones? In Scripture there are numerous commands and prescriptions related to heterosexual marriage, divorce, rape, and adultery, as well as which members of the opposite sex one was *not* allowed to marry (such as close family members). In this fallen world, it seems God describes the proper use of nearly every good thing he gives, including food, drink, and sex—so if he views homosexual unions as good, why doesn’t he speak to his people about proper conduct within them?—especially given how common homosexuality was in not only the ancient Greco-Roman world of Jesus and the apostles, but also the ancient Near East of Israel between the Exodus and Exile?

NP more than 1 year ago

Reply to Why doesn’t the Bible regulate homosexuality as it does heterosexuality?

It never explicitly governs a single type of relationship

Reverian_Memento more than 1 year ago

Misappropriation of Words

For additional information, read my article at www.christevangelicalbibleinstitute.com/misappropriation.pdf

Dr. Joseph Adam Pearson more than 1 year ago

Why doesn’t the Bible regulate homosexuality as it does heterosexuality?

You make a good point. However, although the Bible gives some regulations about sexual relationships, it doesn't give clarity about many aspects of sexual relationships. For example, what is the legal age of consent for sex? What sexual positions and sexual acts are acceptable? Is masturbation okay? Is birth control okay? Is abortion okay? Who can intersex people (people with both male and female or with ambiguous genitalia) marry? I'd say these are pretty important questions that "the Word of God" ignores.

Anthony more than 1 year ago

Sodom and Gomorrah

Even if the word homosexual was not originally written, how would one discount the story of Sodom and Gomorrah?

Jaime more than 1 year ago

Discussion?

I believe this could benefit by some discussion. Anyone care to step in?

John Astle (United Methodist Insight) more than 1 year ago

re: Sodom And Gommorah

If you read about the culture surrounding Lot and his family they were surrounded by people who were very insular. One did not simply walk into Mordor as it were. You presented yourself at the gates and asked permission to enter. If you just stomped into town you were invading another nation basically. They would have taken you out of town and raped you before the statues of their gods. *This* is what made god angry, because the town elders wanted to do this to the angels (or I think elohim; little gods) that just popped into town.
Of course Lot being a man of his times, women were a commodity and so they were offered up to the elders, but the women were not the invaders so they rejected them.

Sodom and Gommorah were a very evil and cruel city-states, there is an accounting (somewhere) about a woman I think who escaped on of the cities and tells how horrible the people are.

Aisling more than 1 year ago

Huh

Sodom a d Gomorrah wasn't about homosexuality. I really would do some more research into the meaning of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

CHRISTOPHE KISER more than 1 year ago

Sodom and Gomorrah

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apPubPage.aspx?pub=1&issue=557
This article is a well researched read into what Sodom and Gomorrah really was about, refuting common misconceptions.

TA more than 1 year ago

Sodom and Gomorrah

Paraphrasing what my Religion prof said in my class designed for majors and minors at a conservative Baptist university: “Sodom and Gomorrah was not destroyed because of homosexuality. They were destroyed because they lost a core value of hospitality and care for one another.” It was destroyed bc instead of welcoming people in, they were raping people and were living a selfish life that was far from uplifting God.

Hannah more than 1 year ago

Re: Sodom and Gomorrah.

The Bible actually directly outlines the sin of sodom several times in the Bible. Do you know what never appears on the list of their abominations? Homosexuality. I encourage you to read: Jer. 23:14, and Ezekiel 16:49-50.

The unfortunate reality of the story of Sodom is that people chose to ignore the fact that the entire passage revolves around a city who was detestable for many MANY reasons, and focus exclusively on the fact that they wanted to gang-rape two angels who we assume looked like men. That’s another sad thing; we don’t even know what the angels looked like. They could very well have been so beautiful as to have been mistook for women. We don’t know! But people chose to believe that a) sodom’s primary sin was homosexuality despite the Bible already telling us that it wasn’t. And b) that even if the men of sodom we’re going to hang-rape two people they believed to be men, that the condemnation of gang-rape, is equivalent to the condemnation of consensual relationships. The Bible forbids heterosexual fornication. Does that mean that all heterosexual sex is bad? No, of course not. Judging an entire orientation by it’s worst parts is irresponsible with the word of God.

As followers God, we are called not to simply believe something to be true, but to find what /is/ true and believe it. Unfortunately, and I am pointing a finger at myself as well, we—as humans—are lazy. We don’t like to dig deeper than we have to and choose to believe what /seems/ to be true because it’s easier. But if we truly love God, we should hold his Word with enough esteem to go after context and determine what his love letter to us actually says. :)

Blessings to you as you grow in faith and knowledge!

Conor more than 1 year ago

Angels

They actually looked like giant eyes with wings. Look it up

-Arson 214 days ago

It's in my 1866 bible, sorry.

I have a bible from 1866 and it doesn't say "young boys"
Leviticus 18:22 says: "thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination"
I was REALLY hoping this 1866 bible said what you say it says, but it was already in there in the 1866 version

Zachari more than 1 year ago

"It's in my 1866 bible... "

Is your bible FROM 1866 or is it the 1866 version? Check the first or last couple pages for when was it published.

Eric Chilicki more than 1 year ago

"It's in my 1866 bible... "

This is also what my parent’s family bible says. It’s a massive leather bound from long before 1946, like pages crumbling old. Curious about the implications of these alternate earlier translations that seem more in line with current translations. Thoughts?

Curious more than 1 year ago

Just so I can be clear to Eric Zachari

Just to be sure...this was actually in your bible that was definitely the 1866 publication? I had this same discussion in a religious college in 1971...but I don't remember the source of the original text. I know it was a translation and the original language was actually text for boys considered minors. I just can't remember the source, darn it.

I was so hoping this article was the real deal.

Maegan Brownrigg more than 1 year ago

1866

2 things. First off, thats still 1800 years after the bible was written; roughly. And if it only says "thou shalt not" with no gender specification, that would also mean that women cannot lie with man as she does with a woman. basically saying that all women should be lesbians.

-Arson 214 days ago

Alternative approach

Lets write blog posts about how to be more inclusive rather than trying to find very narrow theories in a historical text. Jesus' teaching were all about loving the oppressed and the marginalised; maybe start from there instead?

Ish more than 1 year ago

And again...

I'm sure that Mr. Oxford is sincere in his pursuits. The problem is that he is confusing antiquarianism with scholarship. This is wishful thinking disguised as historical research.

Frank Ashton more than 2 years ago

Reply

Wishful thinking? Christianity is practiced with over 1200 different ways of teaching from basically the same book and what does it matter about homosexuals? That's in the old testament not the new. So unless you practice all 613 laws from the old I dont want to hear your opinion about homosexuals. Leave it for God to judge and you just work on you.

Josh pry more than 1 year ago

Reply reply

But the forbidding of homosexuality also appears in the New Testament in several places (Timothy, Corinthians, Romans). It is by no means an Old Testament-exclusive commandment.

Harrison Graham more than 1 year ago

Changing culture

The interpretation of the word arsenokoitai through the ages is shaded by the beliefs and culture of those interpreting it. This was not the common word in the greek world used to describe male to male relations. It is a word crafted by Paul. Arseno means with a man and koitai is the root of our word coitus which is male-female sexual intercourse. Literally the phrase means men having sexual intercourse with another man. Nowhere does it carry a conotation that it is man-boy relations or any other form of pedophilia. What Paul did do with this word is craft a phrase that perfectly reflects the Levitical rule that a man shall not lay with a man as with another woman. When you apply deconstruction theology to the phrase it is obvious that it means homosexual and nothing else. Also Betsy's point is very valid. The male-female nature of marriage is rooted in Genesis and affirmed by Jesus which is consistent with Paul meaning arsenokoitai to mean adult homsexuals. Relying older, and victorian shaded Bibles does not prove the point. Splashy headline, poor theology. Try another tack.

Scott more than 2 years ago

One concern

"This was not the common word in the greek world used to describe male to male relations."

Why wouldn't Paul use the common term? If it's commonly known, you would use it so your audience knows what you are talking about. It's not like Paul was pauciloquent [to prove the point].

One could very reasonably assume that he meant something different here. The question is, what was his actual meaning?

My understanding from my reading is that there's almost no other context for the term - it's not used prior to Paul in any historical documentation, and so rarely used afterwards that there's no contextual definition for us to use. Certainly the root words help point us in the proper direction, but the lack of definition or context for that particular term - particularly when another common term exists - leaves us with an open question. And to presume that it definitively means something is a bit of a stretch, in my opinion.

JR more than 2 years ago

Why Paul used this word.

JR your analysis of the use of this Greek term is spot on. It is a Paul only term. He created it due to it reflecting the wording of Leviticus. This is an obvious and straight forward explanation. First century Jewish disdain of all forms of homosexuality is well documented and is consistent with the entirety of Scripture. Only by stretching scripture in ways it was never meant and ignoring other parts can you use it to justify gay marriage.

Scott more than 2 years ago

You are ignoring the obvious issue

"JR your analysis of the use of this Greek term is spot on. It is a Paul only term."

Why would that be? Paul was well educated. He certainly would have been familiar, and his audience would have been familiar, with the 'common' term.

Oh, but the gentiles weren't subject to the holiness code, for what it's worth. I believe that's Acts 11. Paul was a Jew of course...

So why invent a new word?

JR more than 2 years ago

Not really a new word

JR,
Paul did not really "make up" the word out of whole cloth (though he was a tentmaker :) )
The lingua franca for the entire area where Paul lived, worked and preached was Greek. Although Paul probably also spoke Hebrew, his first language, and that of his listeners was Greek. The bible they used, the Septuagint, was a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures. It was the "go to" scripture for everyone in that day and age. In the Septuagint, Levitucus 18 and 20 use the words right next to one another: Lev: 20:13 - kai os an koimeetee meta ARSENOS KOITEN gynaikos.
Paul didn't make up the word, any more than if I, when speaking about freedom of speech and religion, said they were "creator-endowed" rights. Any American would understand what I meant, and also know that I was essentially quoting the Declaration of Independence rather than making up some new mystery word. Paul's readers, too would have understood that he was quoting Leviticus. It's really not that difficult.

As for the article, I'm saddened that this blog would print it, given the paucity of biblical scholarship. I can only surmise the rationale is to help drum up support for changing the book of discipline away from biblical belief. Surely the clergy and others who edit UM-Insight know these things, but chose to publish without any commentary anyway.

Tom more than 2 years ago

Not subject to the holiness code

Also, JR, you are right that gentiles were not subject to the Holiness code. The Jerusalem council made that clear. It also made clear that gentile Christians were to refrain from "sexual immorality" (Acts 15:20). How does one define sexual immorality? I think Paul would answer with the Hebrew scriptures.

Tom more than 2 years ago

Reply to Why Paul used this word

Can you provide some references for the idea that first-century Jewish disdain of all forms of homosexuality is well documented?

Anthony more than 1 year ago

homosexual in the Bible

There are serious, scholarly, readable works on the market by scholars with clear academic contributions, both traditional and progressive, regarding what the Bible says or doesn't say about same sex behaviors, orientation and the like. Mr. Oxford's contribution is sincere but problematic on several levels. Perhaps he was selected to publish because he is a Talbot graduate, a very conservative school, who has come to conclusions that would horrify Talbot faculty. Victor Paul Furnish (in the 80's no less), Bernadette Brooten and Robin Scroggs (among others) all deliver the mail clearly from an intellectually informed progressive biblical perspective. Conservative scholars such as Robert Gagnon would eat Oxford's work like an appetizer. As a personal and devotional testimony of how his mind changed, Oxford is fine. For deep scholarship on biblical evidences for or against such as gay marriage, nope.

Bob more than 2 years ago

This makes perfect sense

Homosexual is a modern word. But this one mistranslated word does not address the whole spectrum of the progressive sexuality ethic. Neither does it disprove that Christian marriage is between male and female. It does not refute that God created us male and female. It does not refute that all through the Bible sexual relations were always between male and female. It provides no historical documentation that Christianity or Judaism has ever endorsed same gender sexual relationships. It does not address the fact that the only reason the church is discussing this is that we are on the other side of the sexual revolution of in the greater culture of the 1960's and 1970's when sex became recreational. In the end, all you have clearly proven is that, as humans, we do not always get things right--sometimes we let our own feelings and perspectives influence us.

betsy more than 2 years ago

It doesn't make perfect sense

How do you know Christian marriage is between a male and a female? The existence of one does not deny the existence of the other. I mean so what if the bible only portrays straight relationships? Again, that doesn't mean same sex relationships can't happen and also, of course it would, same sex wasn't common back then, I don't even think it's mentioned besides those two or three scriptures. And obviously we don't have a definitive answer for those either.

Elizabeth more than 1 year ago

Christian marriage

"How do you know Christian marriage is between a male and a female?" Because the Bible teaches gender roles- in marriage, the husband represents Christ and the wife represents the Church. The husband is the head, the wife is the body.

Kayley more than 1 year ago

Homosexuality

There is nothing new under the sun, says Ecclesiastes. Homosexuality was an issue in ancient times, but as in our own recent history it was not practiced openly as it was seen by the wider culture as being unhealthy. The DSM (Diagnostic Statistic Manual) named homosexuality as an illness until the 1970s or so. We need to live people. That’s the place to start. Agreement with everyone else’s perspectives is not a prerequisite for love.

Heather Sproul more than 1 year ago

“Refute”

You believe sex became recreational in the 60’s and 70’s?? Lol are we reading the same Bible. I don’t believe anyone is saying that the word refutes male and female relations... that’s way besides the point. The point is that homosexuality is arguably one of the most “vile” sins in the eyes of many Christians (even though the Bible states that no sin is greater than the other). The possibility of the word translating to mean something else, completely disrupts the prejudice Christian belief.

Nneka Grant more than 1 year ago

Huh?

The Bible does not state that there is no sin greater than another. This is a myth. Although, I am not stating that homosexuals are damned to hell. Just pointing out your error.

Kathryn more than 1 year ago

Context

While humans definitely rank sin and the bible might not literally say "no sin is greater than another", it is easy to deduce from scripture. I think the point is that Christians focus so much on homosexuality and ignore divorce (many examples could be used) and in James 2:10-11 it says "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For he who said "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not commit murder.' If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law." Which one would take to mean all sins are equal. If I lie, I am accountable for the whole law just as someone who murders is. So I think their point was how much the church condemns homosexuality but not other things (while they may say they are all sins, there is not as much outrage or discussion over divorce now like there used to be)

Kaylee more than 1 year ago

Context

First I will say I believe what the Bible says about the fact that we are ALL sinners and fall short of the glory of God. We cannot on our own even have relationship with God, without Jesus. Because of the cross, and the shed blood, we ALL now have access to God, and can have a relationship IF we believe that Jesus is the reason, in other words, THE Saviour. This is regardless of our sin. I think the reason why it seems as, or that it’s become one of the biggest issues is there is a difference between continually living in the same “sin” day after day and denying it’s a sin at all. We seem to know that we’re “living in sin” when we are have sex out of marriage (which is a whole topic in itself as far as how we have all interpreted the definition of marriage in various ways).. Anyways I believe the reason “being homosexual” seems to have become the way it is, is because it is looked at as an ongoing sin without repentance. Of course that’s the whole thing is how can we ever “repent” from something we don’t think is a sin. I was only trying to speak from the “sin” point of view though. Anyways, I’m not explaining my personal point of view of the “issue”. I am speaking my POV of the church and what seems to be the most common way of translating the words of The Bible. I have seen various ways here of interpreting the actual original word we’ve been discussing, but I am continuing to research all this. From what I recall, there are numerous references and we absolutely have to pay attention to context at the same time when we are looking into these things rather than picking out a single word and being only literal with that one word. If you want to know, I would love for it to mean pedophile over homosexual, however for the sake of not walking through this out of context or without all the correct knowledge, I will continue to research this. Either way we all have equal access to God and no one can tell us differently. THAT is one thing that is very clear to me. Jesus does not love one person more because his sins appear to be more “accepted” by certain churches. So regardless of what anyone thinks, we all have that same love available to us no matter what! ❤️

Diane more than 1 year ago

Comparison of sins

What that part of James is referring to is that having sinned in any regard is to have fallen short of God's glory and to be unworthy of him; meaning that regardless of the extent of our sin, we all need a saviour equally.

That is not to say, though, that all sins are equal. Paul describes himself as the "foremost" of sinners in 1 Timothy because the sins that he has committed (including compelling Christians to blaspheme against the holy spirit) are amongst the worst. Note also, that blasphemy against the holy spirit is said in the Bible to be the worst sin (since it, by definition, does not repent).

Harrison Graham more than 1 year ago

“ 1960's and 1970's when sex became recreational”

Wow. What a breathtaking lie! Millions of animals, including humans, have enjoyed recreational sex for millions of years. The perfectly natural drive that leads consenting adults to have sex has been twisted and hijacked by religions of various types in order to keep the gullible masses feeling guilty and subservient.

Fuzzy more than 1 year ago

Same sex

We also have several animals that have same sex relationships...if God was so against it why would he allow it...

Kara more than 1 year ago

Confused

Wow! Not strong religiously, so this is really showing me there's not much agreement...still. Apparently the meaning of the bible depends on who is reading. Jewish people, the chosen ones, do not believe in New Testament, but that's a requirement to enter heaven. And so many other religions are going to hell also? You might think with the years of existence and attention the bible has gotten, there would be less controversy. God is cruelly laughing or moved on elsewhere.

Kasha 321 days ago